56 responses so far ↓

• 1 Bearguez // Oct 9, 2007 at 1:12 pm

  WASPs picking crops? The stopped seventy years ago right after John Steinbeck’s great novel “The Grapes of Wrath.” For the last fifty years, this work has been done by people of color. Now this work is exclusive to migrant workers mostly from Latin America. This billion dollar industry can not function without migrant workers. American farmers and farming co-ops can not get away with paying low wages and the usual labor exploitation they so commonly administrate on other ethnic groups. Only Latino migrant workers tolerate those horrible conditions. Something Lou Dobbs, Pat Buchannan, and Bill O’Reilly haven’t explained during their televised rants focused on anti-immigration issues.

• 2 webmaster // Oct 9, 2007 at 1:22 pm

  Well, I wasn’t necessarily implying that WASPs pick the crops, but just American citizens in general, which is likely not going to happen. The anti-immigration folks like to suggest that people leaving prison, recovering addicts, homeless, etc. will pick up the slack and work in the fields so we can deport all of the undocumented people. I don’t see them organizing those on the fringes of society to go pick the crops. And I also don’t foresee the growers raising their wages.

• 3 reenee // Oct 9, 2007 at 9:57 pm

  Americans rushing into the Agricultural Arts? Wine growers, berry, lettuce, spinach, chili, broccoli, etc, farmers raising wages?
  Two words: Not happening.
  That the anti-everyone of color knuckleheads are suggesting that ex-cons, homeless and others would harvest these crops, shows me how dumb they really are. This work is much too hard.
  This multi-billion dollar industry did not get that lucrative by paying top dallar for back breaking work.
  That the Fox Channel pissants cannot seem to connect these obvious dots amazes me.

• 4 El Loco // Oct 10, 2007 at 6:19 am

  There’s a difference between “making legal immigration easier” and “hiring undocumented immigrants.” There’s really no disconnect between the two. But I don’t know how long the Republicans can keep up this charade of trying to have it both ways: “we want the 12 million illegal immigrants to go back to their countries . . . so we can bring them back legally.”

  You know what should happen? We should keep the migrants out and let the produce rot on the fields. Watch as the price of everything we eat rises faster than gasoline, and stays there. And watch as more farmers go across the border to Mexico to raise produce cheaper – because of the lack of environmental and workplace regulations and the lower salaries – and have it imported to the U.S. to be sold at ridiculous prices.

  Maybe then people will get it. Like someone said a long time ago – I’ve seen versions of this quote attributed to Grant, Lincoln and others, – the best way to get rid of a bad plan is to implement it fully.

  You may say that people will suffer, right? Well, these are the same idiots who think “we don’t need no stinkin’ immigrants” so, it would be poetic justice.

• 5 El Loco // Oct 10, 2007 at 6:20 am

  Hmm, me is stupid. You “raise” livestock and you “grow” produce.

• 6 Frank // Oct 11, 2007 at 7:37 am

  It is illegal and immoral for this country to base its economy and workforce on undocumented labor. Why don’t these farmers import legal labor for these farm jobs with temporary visas and pay them a fair wage? The problem is that these illegals don’t stay on farm jobs. They move on to better paying jobs that Americans will do for a fair wage. And the employers are more than willing to hire them at half the price rather than hiring an American. This isn’t fair to the American citizen. Another thing that the farmers can do is mechanize more.

  I would be more than willing to pay more for produce and return to a nation of laws and secure our borders so we know who is coming into our country, than getting a brake on a cheap tomato. This whole illegal immigration issue is not about race or racism with most Americans anyway.

• 7 webmaster // Oct 11, 2007 at 9:27 am

  When it comes to profits, I don’t think that this country has a good history of doing the “moral” thing… whatever that may be. You ask the multi-billion dollar question “Why don’t these farmers import legal labor for these farm jobs?” Did you read the LA Times and NY Times articles that were referenced?

  While you might be willing to pay more for produce, do you think that other people will? Let’s face it, this country is addicted to products produced with slave-like labor, whether they come from US companies who employ undocumented immigrants or from companies that employ child or slave labor abroad.

• 8 Michaelr // Oct 11, 2007 at 10:13 am

  Welcome to the “Free Market” Frank…and while you are researching our 600 billion dollar agricultural industry that depends exclusively on migrant labor to get out their product, maybe you’ll come across your tax dollars being funnelled through the U.S. Department of Agriculture that subsidize these very same farmers/co-ops so they can be competitive with farmers in Canada and Mexico. Its quite a racket. Cash flow from the product, and cash flow from the U.S. taxpayer…wow what a business!

• 9 Michaelr // Oct 11, 2007 at 10:52 am

  Morality in business? Commerce practiced within the realm of Capitalism, as defined by the Free Market has absolutely nothing to do with the practice of morality. It’s all the practice of exchange, mark up, and accumulation. Business is war, and Corporate America engages exclusively in the immoral practice of enslavement, murder, theft, litigation, exploitation, faulty products, shareholder theft, misrepresentation, executive theft, creative accounting, labor exploitation, funny paper and funny money, corporate deceit, public deception, larceny, along with numerous other verbs and adjectives that easily fall under the definition of immoral behavior. A textbook example of this behavior can be seen through the business practices of Wal-Mart, the energy industries, the military industrial complex, and the American agricultural industry. Morality? The immigration issue today has nothing to do with immigration. This issue is a diversionary tactic to hide the Bush Administration theft of 12 billion tax dollars a month to fund the business practices of Halliburton, Blackwater, the Carlyle Group, and the American oil industry. And this is just one scenario being worked on.

• 10 EYES OF TEXAS // Oct 11, 2007 at 1:00 pm

  No, this nation does not require 30 million illegal aliens to pick crop, roof houses, mow yards or anything else they are doing. If they were all gone tomorrow America would survive. People seem to forget what being American really means; we may be knocked down temporarily, but we always get back to our feet and recover. When things look to be the worst they can be, Americans pull together like no other country in the world. So, don’t be so foolish as to think illegal aliens are really necessary to do these jobs, because if you think that you really don’t know Americans too well. God Bless America and all patriots fighting to save her.

• 11 Bearguez // Oct 11, 2007 at 2:19 pm

  How could this immigration debate not be about racism? It’s all about racism. Latin American migrants only perform labor in occupations WASP citizens don’t care to perform even if they are forced too. Are you going to pick grapes in Delano, strawberries in Bakersfield, or lettuce in Brawley? How silly is this argument? Change that FOX news channel and truly think about what you’re saying.

• 12 webmaster // Oct 11, 2007 at 2:40 pm

  I think that there is an element of racism, but economics also factor heavily into the debate.

  Of course, this nation doesn’t “require” illegal immigrants, but our citizens have become dependent upon this cheap source of labor.

  Eyes of Texas, do you really think that farmers will comply with the law? You are from a state with a heavy agricultural base. Mr. Texas himself, George W. acknowledges that we need these people, but the farmers are having a fit when it comes to compliance with the visa and labor law requirements. The illegal immigrants are just trying to feed their families, but the business owners/growers are completely content with going around the law to hire these people to enrich themselves even further.

  Why are we Americans letting the crops rot then?

• 13 Frank // Oct 11, 2007 at 4:17 pm

  Webmaster, what you fail to realize is that all these so-called low prices we are receiving on produce and other consumable products due to illegal labor is a myth. It is only the employer who hires them that are repeating the profits. For the most part they aren’t passing any savings unto us.

• 14 webmaster // Oct 11, 2007 at 4:25 pm

  Frank,

  Then how do you explain this data:

  http://www.shns.com/shns/g_index2.cfm?action=detail&pk=BORDER-HOMES-06-16-06

  and this:

  http://money.cnn.com/2006/05/01/news/economy/immigration_economy/index.htm

  Do you think that home builders would have had such a long run in the most recent real estate craze if they did not have this labor?

• 15 Frank // Oct 11, 2007 at 4:45 pm

  Michael, I don’t have a problem with migrant labor just as long as they are here working legally. Morality is something that our government needs to enforce in the way of our labor and immigration laws. The employers are breaking the law and our government is doing nothing about it. We need to hold our government accountable for this. They are also supposed to protect us from an illegal invasion too. We can no longer allow them to not uphold our laws.

  Bear, what do you mean the illegal immigration issue has to be about racism? It is about the rule of law and it doesn’t matter who you are, you not supposed to enter our country illegally. Latinos aren’t the only illegals in this country. As far as picking the crops, as I said in another post, I am not opposed to legal migrant workers doing that because it is true that most Americans won’t do those jobs because most Americans can’t survive on those wages and it is back breaking work. Americans value education and they strive for careers that will gain them at least a middle class lifestyle. That doesn’t make them lazy for not picking crops.

  Webmaster, it is only fringe groups that may have a racist agenda for opposing illegal immigration. That is not true of most Americans, so why worry about a few and use it as an argument to be pro-illegal?

  No, most citizens are not relying on illegal labor to survive. It is only some unscrupulous employers. From what I understand most of the illegals had jobs in their own country, it is just that American jobs pay a lot more. So it really isn’t about starving families for the most part. It doesn’t matter anyway, they need to be addressing their starvation issue with Mexico or whatever other country they are from. It doesn’t give them the right to violate our immigration laws. Who do you think has to subsidize their health, education and welfare needs? It is the American citizen. We are having enough trouble feeding our own families without the added burden of caring for illegals. What about the stolen I.D.’s and SS numbers they use to work here? I know many American lives that have been
  destroyed over this.

  If the fruits are rotting on the vines, it is because the illegals themselves don’t stay on those jobs long. They move on to better paying jobs and undercutting Americans for them. Farmers can mechanize more so not as many pickers are required or they will just have to get use to using legal migrant workers with the type of visa that doesn’t allow them to move on to other jobs. It all boils down to doing the right thing in the right way.

• 16 Michaelr // Oct 11, 2007 at 4:52 pm

  Maybe the Eyes of Texas knows something we don’t know. Thirty million illegal aliens? He must think that every single Americano is illegal. Of course, FOX news likes to say that too.

• 17 Frank // Oct 11, 2007 at 5:43 pm

  Webmaster, I explain it as open borders propaganda perpetuated by big business. For every article you can provide me with that illegals are good for our economy and our nation, I can counter it with just the opposite facts.

  Michael, Many sources say that there are a lot more than 12 million illegals in our country. I tend to believe it based on how many we had twenty years ago and how many the Border Patrol are saying are crossing our borders illegally everyday. I did the math, did you?

• 18 Michaelr // Oct 12, 2007 at 9:27 am

  Frank: Do you really think we would be chatting about this, if we weren’t moving into a recession and toppling a 9 trillion dollar deficit mark. Economic downturns always seek to blame the one group of people who really can’t defend themselves. You can make the numbers say anything to rationalize your phobias. Are you one of those people who say grace at dinner time, but hate your next door neighbor? You place such a high opinion on morality, but where is your morality on this issue?

• 19 Frank // Oct 12, 2007 at 10:17 am

  Michael, of course we would still be talking about our out of control illegal immgiration situation. The talk started about 6 years ago and has escalated because of their increasing numbers and the awareness of needing to secure our borders since 9/11.

  Why is objecting to illegal immigration considered to be a phobia to you? It is about the violation of our laws. I don’t hate my next door neighbor as long as he respects me and my property. The illegals aren’t doing that.

  It isn’t moral to expect others to obey our laws? Where is their morality in not doing so? How moral is it to sneak into this country and take American jobs and expect them to pay for their health, education and welfare? I am on the side of the law and they are not and I am the immoral one? You operate under some strange logic.

• 20 webmaster // Oct 12, 2007 at 10:23 am

  Frank, I wasn’t necessarily saying that illegal immigrants are good for the economy. I don’t think that immigration is a debate of good vs. bad, but it is one with many shades of gray. The fact of the matter is, we, as Americans, have grown accustomed to utilizing goods and products manufactured with cheap labor, some of which is illegal.

  In a way, I agree w/ Michaelr, who states that this whole immigration issue is blown up to divert our attention from other issues such as the War in Iraq (which by the way is costing us more than the immigration issue), climate change, the declining value of the dollar (so much for our purchasing power these days), etc.

  Are you directing any of your efforts to halt illegal immigration in the direction of the companies that hire them?

  As far as morality and business goes, well, most businesses don’t care about what is moral. They care about what is going to make them money and keep them in business. Since when have businesses been moral? Also, whose morals are we talking about? Morality is so subjective to begin with.

• 21 webmaster // Oct 12, 2007 at 10:30 am

  Your question re: morality and the law… you can pose the same question of the Blackwater contracters in Iraq or of Wal-Mart, etc.

  Of course, entering a country illegally is against the law, and people should not do it, but how do you expect them to not consider the option of doing so when businesses welcome their labor with open arms? People are money motivated.

• 22 EYES OF TEXAS // Oct 12, 2007 at 1:03 pm

  The estimated number of 12 million illegal aliens in our country has been used for at least ten years. Some how it got stuck at that number in the mainstream media. Since it is only an estimated number, there is a margin of error, but most organizations that do population studies have bumped the number to 30 million. The reason the 30 million estimate is not used by the media is because most of the media is liberal and do not want the true number to be public knowledge. Like an earlier post said, do the math and it will be close to 30 million. Also remember, this is all illegal aliens, not just those from the southern nations.

• 23 webmaster // Oct 12, 2007 at 3:07 pm

  EYES OF TEXAS:

  What liberal media?

  http://www.thenation.com/doc/20030224/alterman2

  http://www.whatliberalmedia.com/

  Even noted conservatives have admitted that the whole notion of a “liberal media” is hype. Think about the news waves, mostly network news owned by big conglomerates, Fox news and Wall Street Journal owned by Rupert Murdoch. I bet that most media outlets in Texas are of the conservative variety. But since they are pro-business, and immigration is really about labor and supplying resources to business… you may have a point regarding the statistics.

• 24 Frank // Oct 12, 2007 at 3:08 pm

  Webmaster, illegal immigration is a serious domestic problem. The Iraq war is a seperate issue. These two things are in the top 5 things concering Americans right now.

  I disagree, it is the employers who have gotten use to cheap illegal labor to increase their profit margin which for the most part isn’t getting passed on to the consumer in the way of savings on products. We simply cannot and should not be operating this way in this country and that includes those employers who lack morality on this matter. That isn’t what this country is about. We need to get back on track as a nation of laws.

  No, I don’t contact employers about who their employees are. I don’t have the right to do that but I do contact our congressmen on a daily basis. They are the ones who should be holding the employers accountable, not me.

  Whose morality are we talking about? Our government, the employers and the illegals. Just because someone offers you a job by illegal means, doesn’t excuse you from wrongdoing if you choose to take it. Is there no personal responsibility here?

• 25 Michaelr // Oct 12, 2007 at 3:22 pm

  There are around 40 million Latinos in the United States. And that number includes Mexicans, Puerto Ricans, Cubans, Dominicans, Argentines, Bolivians, Columbians, Venezuelans, Peruvians, Chileans, Guatemalans, Hondurans, Salvadorians, Nicaraguans, Costa Ricans, Brazilians, and the rest of Latin America. But according to the Eyes of Texas, based on their assumption because the Liberal Media is constantly feeding us the wrong information, 30 million of those Latinos are illegal. So there are only 10 million Latinos in the United States who are here legally. Well…looks like I have to have a long conversation with my ancestors, because according to the Baptismal records at the San Gabriel Mission, we’ve been in Los Angeles since 1795. But they may be a part of the whole liberal media too. So…despite all my higher education, and hundreds of people who depend on me for their living, I could also be an illegal alien! Maybe I need to call my security detail, and have them caravan me down to the border, so I can enlighten the INS. And while I am there, I can call Jerry Jones and tell him I am calling in the note that gives me principal ownership in the Dallas Cowboys. And when Jerry asks why I am doing this, I’ll just tell him the Eyes of Texas says I’m here illegally.

• 26 Michaelr // Oct 12, 2007 at 3:24 pm

  Frank…where is this moral world you live in? You certainly aren’t referring to the United States of America.

• 27 Frank // Oct 12, 2007 at 4:35 pm

  Michael, were you born in the U.S.? You say your ancestors have been here since 1795, so why would you make such a statement that you “might” be here illegally? Sounds like a little victim playing here for all Latinos to me.

  Morality is mostly an individual choice. But this country was built on those Christian morals even though our government has fallen into corruption. There are still many of us citizens who expect our government, employers and foreigners to follow those laws of morality and rightly so. I won’t drop to their level and make excuses for immoral behavior. Do you choose to follow corruption and immorality in this country or make our government accountable for it? Do you choose to excuse foreigners for breaking our laws aka immorality?

• 28 webmaster // Oct 12, 2007 at 5:05 pm

  Actually Frank, our founding fathers were not bible thumping Christians hung up on morality. Thomas Jefferson himself had his suspicions about the bible. James Madison opposed religous intrusions into civil life. Remember that many of the colonists came to America for religious freedom, and of course, to make a buck, which is the real “gospel” that our leaders follow. Haven’t you read the latest articles on Fabian Nuñez?

• 29 Frank // Oct 12, 2007 at 5:52 pm

  Our country was still founded on basic Christian values and they are instilled in our Constitution and Bill of Rights. We are a nation of laws and should remain so, that is the basis for morality.

  As long as these colonists/immigrants of old came here legally (there were no immigration laws prior to 1920), I don’t fault them for their motivations or for coming here.

  It is intolerable that our own government doesn’t even honor our own laws anymore. We have to change the way we are headed as Americans who love this country and despise corruption and immorality.

• 30 Michaelr // Oct 12, 2007 at 6:03 pm

  Frank; I am amazed at all the racism inbred into your immigration dialogue. For someone who taunts morality as one of the guiding lights of your existence the “golden rule” doesn’t seem to apply to your current beliefs, especially in regards to this immigration issue. So this Christian belief system of yours is only for the convenience in rationalizing your racism towards people of color. You need to read some U.S. history books and re-exam your thought processes in light of your so-called moral beliefs. The separation of Church and State was instituted by the Founding Fathers to keep people like you from passing judgment on others based only on their skin color.

• 31 Frank // Oct 12, 2007 at 9:31 pm

  What racism have I displayed? Please point out the specifics. I haven’t and you know it. I have not said one thing against people of color. Illegal aliens come from many countries/races and ethnicities including some White people. Why can’t pro-illegals such as yourself debate with honesty. You are lying about what I have said. Why did you do that?

• 32 webmaster // Oct 13, 2007 at 8:14 am

  Well, I think that the racism in the immigration debate can be traced to laws such as the “Chinese Exclusion Act” of 1882 (an immigration law prior to 1920) and the racial profiling of people who law enforcement “think or suspect” are illegal. I have a friend who was wrongly deported as a child, and despite speaking perfect English and insisting that he was born in Los Angeles, which he was, he was taken by the then INS in Texas.

  Michaelr, I don’t think that separation of church and state was insituted by the founding fathers to keep people from passing judgment on others, as slavery was alive and well during that time. I do think that they wanted to get religion or “Christian beliefs” out of government though. If you read the constitution or Bill of Rights, I’m almost certain that there is no mention of “Christ.” Besides, this country has always had a melting pot of religious beliefs, from the indigenous beliefs of the Natives to the black churches that infused traditions from Africa in their services.

  Frank might not think that he is racist, but most people are to a certain degree. Every time we judge someone just based on ethnicity, we display that racism. But he is correct that illegal immigrants come from many races and countries. I work in an environment where I see many immigrants coming to a major University to study. All of them arrive with visas, but I don’t see anyone enforcing their visa time limits when they should leave.

  We already have many immigration laws on the books, especially those that sanction employers that hire them illegally. Maybe El Loco has a point, if we continue enforcing this laws with a vengeance, maybe people will realize how much immigration reform is really needed.

  The articles that I cite in this blog entry are from mainstream media sources (not liberal media), and there are many others citing the declining labor sources for those who work the fields, in packing houses, etc. Obviously, American citizens are not yet taking these jobs, so we will see what happens.

• 33 Frank // Oct 13, 2007 at 9:02 am

  Webmaster, why do you bring up past discrimanatory immigration practices of the past? It isn’t like that today so it is irrelevant. I will ask you the same thing that I asked Michael, where in this blog have I stated or even insuated that I judge people by their ethnicity? I don’t! I judge them by their actions not their genetics.

  I agree we need to round up all these visa overstayers too. They are also here illegally now.

  Immigration reform to me means, first having proof that Americans won’t do certain jobs and increasing visas for those kinds of jobs for foreign labor such as in the ag industry if so needed. There are very few jobs that Americans won’t do for a fair wage. It also means enforcing our existing immigration laws, including securing both of our borders.

  Your idea of immigration reform is to just blanketly give amnesty or legalization to all of the illegals in this country whether we need them or not and not taking into consideration population growth with these high fertility immgirants or the difficulty of assimilating that many immigrants thrown at us all at once who are from mostly one culture. Even when we talk about securing the borders, we hear cries about that when it includes the physical barrier of a fence to assist the Border Patrol and be a deterrant. Americans aren’t stupid. We know what is behind all of this.

• 34 webmaster // Oct 13, 2007 at 10:53 am

  Frank, I have never said that my idea of immigration reform is to give a blanket amnesty. Where have I said that? I have cited articles that suggest that we need immigrant labor in certain industries. I don’t think that we can deny the need, but many businesses thumb their nose at the law and entice undocumented workers into employment.

  When it comes to issues of wages… what exactly do you mean by a “fair wage”? Did you read the article on Wal-Mart? Some bloggers and pundits advocate getting rid of the minimum wage. I’m beginning to realize that you are a one issue kind of guy and that immigration is your gripe. The flow of immigrants across the globe, whether it is Mexicans or Central Americans coming to the US or Philippinos working in Europe or the UAE is related to the flow of commerce and the need to keep manufacturing costs low so that product prices can remain competitive. Why do you think that so many American factories have moved abroad? They certainly didn’t want to pay a “fair wage” here.

• 35 Frank // Oct 13, 2007 at 4:11 pm

  Most pro-illegal advocate’s idea of immigration reform is blanket amnesty or legalization. Sorry if I had you pegged wrong.

  Yes, I agree some immigrant labor probably is needed, especially in the ag industry but there are some jobs that illegals have taken that Americans have always done for a fair wage such as in the contruction industry. I have been told that a dry waller for example use to make anywheres from $12.00 as as strarting wage up to $20.00 an hour along with some other construction skills. Illegals will do it for $8-10 bucks an hour.

  You also have me pegged wrong. I am not a one issue guy. I have a top five though and illegal immigration is in that top five.

  Our government needs to intervene in all this outsourcing of our jobs and protect American jobs. It is a myth that much of the profits realized by business thru hiring cheap illegal labor is passed on to the American consumer in savings for them. It goes in the employers pockets.

  I also feel we need to scale back our economy to fit a smaller population. A huge economy is being driven by huge population growth and mostly due to illegal aliens coming here. This will spell disater for us down the road.

• 36 webmaster // Oct 13, 2007 at 9:43 pm

  I don’t think that the current administration is going to intervene in the outsourcing of jobs. I think that corporate greed has been escalated in recent years.

  It seems to me that you only want to discuss immigration, but the more pressing problem is the War in Iraq, which is costing the American tax payer approximately $8.4 billion per month. The Center for Immigration Studies, which is a right-leaning organization, estimates that illegal immigration creates a net deficit of $10 billion per year for the US (after taxes are paid). Gee, you tell me which issue is costing the US more money. It doesn’t take a rocket scientist, yet so many people get so worked up over illegal immigration. Really, if you want to be angry about something immoral and costly, why aren’t you getting worked up over the war?

  I don’t have a solution for the illegal immigration problem. In many ways, I think that it is like the drug trade, as long as there is a market for it here in the US, it will exist. I don’t necessarily think that blanket amnesty is the answer, and yes, in the more perfect world, where people complied with the law, we would issue more legal visas for the labor that we do need.

  I also think that you cannot examine the immigration issue in a vacuum. It is far reaching and is a consequence of globalization to a large degree. So yes, the immigration issue touches on the Iraq War, the extent that our economy is dependent on products that are produced cheaply from all over the globe, and the migratory patterns of workers at all levels. Other countries are dealing with immigration too, so we aren’t the only ones.

  I know that Michaelr can speak to some of the needs in the IT industry for consultants from various parts of the globe.

  Why do you think that we (Americans) greet some immigrants with open arms, while for others we create more obstacles? For instance, with Cuba, we have a weet feet, dry feet policy. After the Vietnam war, we absorbed many South Vietnamese immigrants. Do you think that we will eventually accept more Iraqi immigrants?

• 37 Frank // Oct 14, 2007 at 5:41 am

  Web, I am concerned about the Iraq war and it’s expenses. However, I tend to take domestic issues here at home more to heart. Like immigration, healthcare, education, etc. The Iraq war may be costing us more short term but long term illegal immigration will not only cost us a lot in dollars but in so many other ways too. We will eventually pull out of Iraq but unless we address this illegal immigration issue soon it will have a lasting effect on us.

  We need eliminate the market for illegal labor and that would be by going after the employers. We havent’ been enforcing our immigration laws at that level. If the employers know they are going to be severely fined and/or imprisoned for hiring illegal employees that will eliminate the market. If there are no jobs for the illegals they won’t come here. Securing our borders will go a long ways in fixing the problem too. Sure we will always have some illegal labor, nothing is foolproof but we should make every attempt to hold our government accountable for looking the other way, sanctioning the employers and stopping illegals at the border.

  Yes, I am aware that other countries are having problems dealing with immigration. Take a look at Europe for example and the riots that occured not long ago.

  I think we need to change our immigration policies. No more wet feet, dry feet, no more absorbing immigrants from war torn countries just for that reason. We have reached our carrying capacity in this nation. It is time to stop worrying more about foreigners and start thinking about our own citizens. I am not opposed to continued immigration but it must be fair to all and it must be based on our needs are ability to absorb and assimilate them.

  I hope we don’t accept more Iraqi immigrants. Their culture isn’t compatible with ours. I hate to think that we will continue to take in immigrants from countries that we are at war with for that reason. Personally I am sick of our government sticking their noses in other country’s businesses and forcing our democracy on them. I think we need to move away from being an offensive country to more of a defensive one.

• 38 PMG! // Oct 14, 2007 at 5:54 pm

  The 12 million unauthorized immigrant number that most media use comes directly from the Department of Homeland Security, who complies it with the assistance of the census department. Like all collaborations of the census dept, the report takes a while to update (Small business numbers take 10 years! ) and the last update was 2000, where the number was 9 million. You can find the report here…

  http://www.dhs.gov/xlibrary/assets/statistics/publications/ill_pe_2006.pdf

  IME, working these numbers professionally and providing them to various media outlets (Both english and spanish) most of the numbers throw around that are much higher typically come from organizations who have certain ‘feelings’ about the issue.

• 39 Oscar // Oct 15, 2007 at 11:56 pm

  Oh wow!!!! I have been away busy with work but now I’m back The economic enriched construction commerce and construction businesses commerce have been in great part of cheap immigrant labor, hired by American companies. We cannot forget immigrants who labor our fruits, vegetables, meats, dairies, etc. Also those immigrants who have died and have been injured in our ridiculous war. This work and sacrifice is done by immigrants that are hired and recruited by us (Americans). Do these rich companies and private businesses call Lou Dobbs, O’Reilly, Becker, and others, to complain about immigrants, I doubt it! I also don’t believe these companies and businesses share with the IRS the profits they make from immigrant cheap labor and unaccounted profits. This is a different debate and topic called “White Collar Criminals”.
  This is what I don’t understand about people who use immigrants as scapegoats and as a problem in our society. I don’t know if some of these opposers of immigrants have forgotten that their ancestors who came as they say “illegally” from Europe, Asia, Mexico, Africa, etc, were also used for cheap labor. What happend to the “compassion”?
  Historically people always use the poor and underrepresented groups as scapegoats so this is nothing new. Presently, people use the 911 event, scarce resources (because of the war), and the economic down fall to point the fingers at others. They use the border security rhetoric as well as their fear rhetoric to have people buy into their anti-immigrant perceptions and actions. America is a great country made of immigrant sweat, blood, and tears. This is reality and no pro-immigrant rhetoric!!! Our nations founding principles were of an inclusive society and not divided society. I’m not saying we cannot have differences of opinions etc. I’m saying pointing the fingers at groups who have enriched our nation is the wrong way to move forward as a nation. These negative perceptions and actions towards people will not move us forward as a nation. Especially, those who we Americans use for our cheap labor, to benefit our country, who are law abiding, consumers, tax payers, and who do not have the resources and means to defend themselves. This itself is immoral and wrong!!! If we are to move forward on a fair immigration policy we need to have an open minded dialogue where we can have a fair policy for all. Obviously, it will take alot of resources and man power to come up with a fair initiative. We will need economists, sociologist, commerce experts, and others to develop a fair policy for all.
  Blaming people is not the anwser! Do we need change in immigration policy, yes we do. Especially now that people have bought into this fear scapegoat factor. All this rant and rave, of fear, the taking away of resources from our citizens, and the buy in that all immigrants are terrorists and criminals.
  Those who have never seen or experienced the harsh realities of the working conditions of immigrant workers, do not understand the human side of this issue. Immigrants sacrifice so much to prosper our country and it is sad how people can quickly perceive these people as anti-human and quickly judge and point the blame finger. Many of these who point the finger have probably never have had contact with these immigrant workers hired by Americans. Most of these immigrants are law abiding tax paying people who have great values. I have had interactions with many immigrants in agriculture and other American industries and they don’t have terrorists plans to harm our nation or take your home, car, pets, or jobs away. They have dreams to assimilate and empower themselves like most of us. They certainly do not have plans to visit Bin Laden in his cave
  Before you judge or blame try walking a mile in ones shoes!!!!!

• 40 Frank // Oct 16, 2007 at 6:27 am

  First of all those you are talking about are illegal aliens, not immigrants. The only ones profiting from their labor are the businesses that hire them. Most Americans do not favor corruption in this country such as those employers who circumvent our labor and immigration laws while we the tax payer subsidize their healthcare and other social costs. I would rather pay more for my purchases anyway to keep Americans employed and to remain a nation of laws, not lawlessness. Don’t blame law abiding Americans for the sins of some employers. Our government, the employers and the illegals themselves are all to blame for this mess we are in. All three need to be dealth with and swiftly.

  There is a legal way to come here. If the employers can’t find Americans to do some of these jobs, then they should let our government know so that work visas can be increased for those jobs. Never is there justification for breaking our laws.

  Illegal aliens may not be responsbile for all of our country’s woes but they certainly are in the top 3-5 problems we have in this country. There is no denying that.

  Whose ancestors came here illegally? Besides even if that were true, do you think we of today would approve of that? I wouldn’t. Two wrongs don’t make a right. Why should we have compassion for those who break our laws?

  I notice you keep using the word immigrant when illegal aliens are who you are really talking about. That isn’t debating honestly. Most Americans are not opposed to legal immigration and it doesn’t matter what race or ethnicity that the immigrant is. Pulling the race card is childish.

  The more people we have in this country, the less natural resources there are to spread around. It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to figure that out, especially when that increase in population growth is due to uncontrolled population growth via illegal immigration. I don’t know of anyone who calls illegal aliens looking for work, terrorists. But when you have a border that 12 million plus people have been able to slip undected, do you not think that terrorists are slipping right throught with them? As a matter of fact the FBI Directors even said that they have been.

  We can’t take in the whole world’s poor and destitute. We already have 300 million in this country. Our nation is among the most generous in taking in immigrants. There has to be limits or we would be committing national suicide down the road. Many immigrant’s cultures are incompatible with ours too.

  Lets get back to the rule of law by enforcing our immigration laws, securing our borders and where there is a demonstrated need for foreign labor for jobs that Americans can’t or won’t do provide legal visas for them to come here, while keeping in mind population growth. A population driven economy via illegal immigration will destroy us down the road in so many ways such as the depletion of our natural resouces, overcrowded schools, jails and hospitals.

  I suggest that these hard working “immigrants” try working harder at fixing their own countries. We did it, why can’t they? I would like to see their countries be as successful as ours and spread the world’s population over the entire planet rather than squeezing them all into ours. Where there is a will, there is a way.

• 41 Oscar // Oct 16, 2007 at 11:28 am

  Frank,
  Thank you for your reply I appreciate your honesty. First, you call these individuals “illegal aliens”. I call these human warriors, who enrich our nation, and benefit our lives, “Humans”. Yes this is my definition my friend!! Remember our capitalistic economic system is based upon cheap immigrant labor. So our nation is great nation because we use people. If immigrants are lawless then we Americans are breaking the law by benefiting from their labor. This is not a one way street my friend!!! I would like to see people who rant and rave about immigrants working the fields and crops of our nation, I doubt if I will see this happen in my lifetime. We are a service oriented nation and we will always depend on immigrant cheap labor! This is a fact that research and statistics cannot deny. Using the statement the “sins of employers” is a harsh statement that needs to be revisited from the heart not from a right wing intellectual perspective. Again, if people are using others for the benefit of our lives then we ourselves are sinners. This is why I’m so passionate about this societal issue, because I know that I know, that deep in my soul God sees immigrants as humans and not as sub-humans as many in our society do.

  I understand we need a better process of identification of immigrants entering our nation. So please send your thoughts to your senator as I have to my local senator. I have never brought out the race card so I’m not sure what your comment was implying. Immigrants are diverse European, Asian, African, Middle Eastern, Latino, etc. Yes you are correct, we are a very generous nation but we also have to understand that we benefit from those you and others call “illegal”. Our nation is beautiful because of our diversity and our population expansion. I think you will be safe from people overtaking your home and your pet so enjoy this great life Remember my friend, just as we come naked into this world, we leave naked out of this world!!

• 42 Frank // Oct 16, 2007 at 2:56 pm

  i would also define them as humans but they are also in our country illegally and apparently you have not studied their costs to us vs any benefits. They are in the negative column plus employers have no right not to follow our labor and immigration laws. They are the only ones benefiting from this illegal labor, not ordinary American citizens. Whether you want to admit it or not they are taking jobs that Americans have been doing. They are taking those jobs at a lower pay rate and therefore driving Americans off those jobs. Granted there are some jobs that Americans won’t do but not most of them. I think this is treating Americans inhumanely not the illegals. We are also having to subsidize their health, education and welfare. Are you aware how many of them give birth in our country paid for by the taxpayer? And being a fertile group, that is driving our population numbers up even more.

  Our economy is being driven by population growth via illegal immigration. Have you given any thought to the consquences to our country down the road with uncontrolled population growth? Money isn’t everything you know. I am for a smaller economy to fit a smaller population using legal immigrant and citizen labor.

  You keep using the word immigrant to describe those who are in our country by breaking our laws. They are not immigrants in the eyes of our laws nor would God see them that way. Ever heard of the ten commandments? It is about following rules.

  Why would you call those of us who who are for the rule of law, anti-immigrant? Or say that we look at these people as sub-human? That isn’t true! That is pulling the race card to me. We are not anti-immigrant, we are anti-illegal alien.

  Diversity has nothing to do with the illegal immigration issue. It is about laws. We are already a diversified nation and have been so for some time now. So how can you bring that into the argument? It is however, difficult to assimilate into our society millions who keep coming from just one ethnic group and without papers. They are colonizing rather than assimilating. That is another reason we have immigration laws so that we are not overwhelmed with immigrants that we cannot assimilate.

  You are not looking at or caring about how this illegal immgiration mess is affecting Americans nor are you honoring our laws. I suspect that you are another ethnocentric sympathizer. Whites have been accused of racism for so long and and we have tried to change that image by treating all as equals but to expect White Americans or any other Americans to treat illegals as equal is ridiculous. Is this now the new racism, Brown racism?

• 43 Hector // Oct 16, 2007 at 11:07 pm

  I needed to speak out when it comes to this debate, as always its a hot topic and need to make things clear.

  I’ve been doing this debate for years, starting with prop 187 a silly proposition that would deny illegals of health benefits in California, that passed only to be denied because it was founded to be unconstitutional.

  Many people react to what they read in the media and really don’t do much research before they voice thier opinion. Coming from a business background any true econmonist can let you know that illegal workers are a power house in our society. They say that they Drain
  our social benefits? Drain our resources? They don’t pay taxes? Thats funny because I think any where in the United States you have to pay sales taxes and I don’t think they buy food, clothing, supplies from the air? Aside from that IRS doesn’t let them go unknown, many of illegals still pay taxes in whats called a PIN number (personal Identification number subsitution to SSN) I’m
  sure many of you haven’t heard from that because you folks haven’t heard that from the media. Well I don’t think the government would want you to know that because it would be very hypocritical to export illegals
  and yet still make them do thier taxes. Our dear president Bush who I haven’t been to content with his decisions has made a right one in the attemp of

  legalizing illegals. The fact of the matter is that he is a business man, not really a politician, but a business man who has invested billions an a war that he would hope to bring a profit. Well illegals are bringing
  billion dollar profits to this country starting with Bank of America in hot pursuit of issuing illegals with no social security numbers to be allowed have credit cards. Many products in our shelves at local stores are written in Spanish, because corporate America knows that Latinos spend in this country. So lets say there is 10 million illegals that pay 100 dollars in taxes would be 1 billion.How about being pratical in $1000.00 in taxes within a year would be 1 trillion right? I don’t know about you but I think thats pretty good money and economist research does show their is more posititve cash flow then minus and I never thought I would say this in a million years but even George Bush would agree with me.

• 44 Frank // Oct 17, 2007 at 7:30 am

  Horace, of course you being from a business background would salivate over cheap illegal labor. No surprise there! You tell me why our tax dollars should go to support illegal aliens in our midst. They may pay sales tax but many aren’t paying income taxes. Even those that do get most, if not all of it back because of their low income or many dependants. Many live several families in a household, so no they aren’t paying their fair share of taxes in the way of rent to cover their children’s education costs. Most don’t have health insurance either. Guess who subsidizes that? Most of the profit realized from cheap illegal labor goes into the employer’s pocket. Most is not passed on to the American consumer in the way of lower prices on goods. I will pay more for a tomato and other products to return to a nation of laws, thank you very much!

  I disagree that all of this labeling and advertising in Spanish nowadays has anything to do with Spanish speakers who are citizens of this country. Most of them are bi-lingual and can read and understand English. No, they are targeting the illegal alien Spanish speakers. Just adding legitamacy to those who are in our country illegally to gain a buck. Disgusting!

  I was well aware of our illegal alien problem well before the media even started talking about it. I form my own opinions. I based them on rule of law and morality. It is immoral for our government and employers to allow and hire illegal aliens in our country. It is also immoral on the part of the illegals to thumb their noses at our immigration laws no matter who is enticing them to do so.

  You and many like you seem to be operating under the premise that making money justifies anything. It doesn’t! Have you given any thought as to how this uncontrolled popuation growth via illegal immigration is impacting us now and will in the future? We have a population driven economy due to illegal immigration and that will spell disaster for us in the future. I am for scaling back the economy to fit a population based on legal/citizen labor while keeping in mind population growth when taking in more immigrants.

• 45 Hector // Oct 17, 2007 at 10:17 am

  Yes its called capitalism look it up and you’ll see our nation. Also look up globalization and you see us among the rest of the world. And yes many illegals do pay income taxes, do your research.

• 46 Frank // Oct 17, 2007 at 2:20 pm

  Hector, and many don’t pay income taxes. Many that do get all their income taxes back due to their low income and many dependants.

  Capitalism and globalism at the expense of our morality and laws? No thanks!

• 47 Michaelr // Oct 17, 2007 at 6:29 pm

  Frank…you can’t file for income taxes without social security numbers, so how are all these illegal immigrants getting their income tax monies back? All that withholding tax that those illegal immigrants pay goes straight into the U.S. treasury. You should know this Frank. Aren’t you all about obeying the law? This is why Bush II loves his illegal aliens. They never collect their withholding taxes, and the White House gets to pay Halliburton and Blackwater invoices without GAO inspection. How’s that for being fair!

• 48 PMG! // Oct 17, 2007 at 9:38 pm

  The IRS will give people without a SS number a Tax ID number to file. If you go to “Barrios” come tax time, you will find store front tax preparers with banners offering to file the needed paperwork.

  That being said, it just goes to show the idea that “Unauthorized Immigrants” not paying any taxes is just silly. The reason why this Tax ID program exists is because some do feel the duty to ‘pay their share. And Uncle Sam is more than willing to take it. Further, aside from sales taxes, they also pay gas, automobile, and Tobacco taxes, etc… Which do add up.

• 49 Frank // Oct 18, 2007 at 7:16 am

  No, one can file income taxes under a tax I.D. number. They get everything back except for the S.S. amount and I consider that penalty money for working here illegally. Just because they pay taxes on goods purchased does not justify their illegal presence in our coutry. They still cost us billions more in health, education and welfare than any taxes they pay in.

• 50 webmaster // Oct 18, 2007 at 12:23 pm

  Frank, the IRS has changed its tax rules to allow illegal immigrants to file taxes with an Individual Tax Identification Number. Check out this article:

  http://news.minnesota.publicradio.org/features/2005/04/11_tonessb_illegal/

  If you don’t believe me or PMG, you can call the IRS and ask.

• 51 Frank // Oct 18, 2007 at 12:29 pm

  Web, I already stated that in one of my posts already that they can and do file with a Tax I.D. number. Didn’t you read my post?

• 52 webmaster // Oct 18, 2007 at 12:52 pm

  Ok, I misunderstood your comment, but how do you know that they most of their taxes back? That is a big assumption.

• 53 Frank // Oct 18, 2007 at 2:45 pm

  Anyone who is low income gets most or all of their income taxes paid in back, especially if they have many dependents. There is no need of proof here, that is a fact.

• 54 webmaster // Oct 18, 2007 at 4:09 pm

  Frank, you are assuming that the undocumented immigrants know how to file correctly and are taking advantage of all of the deductions and credits. Many citizens don’t even know how to do that.

• 55 Frank // Oct 18, 2007 at 5:17 pm

  I am not assuming anything. Many of these illegal aliens have legal relatives in this country and they know how to file an income tax return and could help them especially knowing that they will get a refund. I am not saying I know how many do this, however. Also, most all tax services have at least some Spanish speakers available for interpretations. I think immigrants learn pretty fast about the requirements of tax filing in the U.S. And getting money back would be an incentive to file.

• 56 EYES OF TEXAS // Oct 19, 2007 at 11:25 am

  Since these fine upstanding illegal aliens are able to file income tax and often recieve a good return, they should be required by law to use that return to pay for all the free medical care provided to them at emergency rooms. This process could be coordinated between hospitals and the IRS to be an automatic transaction. By doing this it would also make the illegal alien think twice about going to emergency for a head cold or a hang nail. If they knew they were going to be charged something, they would not be over crowding the hospitals and maybe our high ass medical insurance would go down in price. Just a thought.

Leave a Comment